Conversation: 504-015
Prev: 504-014 Next: 504-016Start Date: Thursday, May 27, 1971 8:28 PM
End Date: Thursday, May 27, 1971 10:38 PM
Participants:
Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.; Krogh, Egil ("Bud"), Jr.; Ehrlichman, John D.; Malek, Frederic V.; Richardson, Elliot L.; [Unknown person(s)]; Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Kissinger, Henry A.Recording Device: Oval Office
Full Tape Conversation Start Time: 04:31:41
Full Tape Conversation End Time: 06:37:06
NARA Description:
On May 27, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Egil ("Bud") Krogh, Jr., John D. Ehrlichman, Frederic V. Malek, Elliot L. Richardson, unknown person(s), H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:28 pm to 6:38 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 504-015 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid:
Conversation No. 504-15
Date: May 27, 1971
Time: 4:28 pm - 6:38 pm
Location: Oval Office
46
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
Ronald L. Ziegler, Egil G. (“Bud”) Krogh, Jr., and John D. Ehrlichman met.
Gift from Malik Faisal ibn Abd al-Aziz al-Saud
-Sword
Greetings
[General Conversation] Conv. No. 504-13 (cont.)
Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]
-Procedures
-President's directive
-Detective work
-Local resources
-Executive order directive
-Division of authority
-Black girl killed in Mississippi
-Federal crime
-Civil rights
-Unknown person
-Step-grandmother
-Mother
-Stepmother
-Mother's father
-Harrison Williams’ bill
-Ziegler’s possible statement
-Administration's stance
-Roles of police agencies
-Directive
-Possible call to Director
-FBI
-Political statement
The President entered at an unknown time after 4:28 pm.
-Summary
-FBI
-Killings of firemen and policemen
-President's directive of November, 1970
-Investigations
47
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
**********************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
[Investigatory Information]
[Duration: 1m 24s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1 Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
**********************************************************************
-97.4% of crimes solved within thirty days
-President's FBI directive of November 1, 1970
-Possible announcement by Ziegler
Ziegler left at 4:35 pm.
Narcotics Special Action Office
-Memo outlining steps
-Trying to gain an initiative
-Congress
-Vietnam
-Robert H. Finch
-Donald H. Rumsfeld
-Establishment
-Starting June 1, 1971
-Directive to Melvin R. Laird
-Elliot L. Richardson
-Rehabilitation
-Prevention
-Education
-Research
-Rehabilitation
-Washington, DC
-Clinics of the Narcotics Treatment Administration
-Methadone maintenance
-Psychotherapy
-Counseling
-Control
-Parole
-Programs
48
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Budget
-Evaluation
-Congress
-Legislation
-Appropriation
-Office of Economic Opportunity [OEO]
-Veterans Administration [VA]
-Department of Defense [DOD] Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Department of Health, Education, and Welfare [HEW]
-Implementation
-Legislative package to Congress
-Timing
-Richardson
-New structure in HEW
-Special assistant
-OEO
-VA prevention programs
-DOD prevention programs
-Attorney General
-Office of Management and Budget [OMB]
-Bill
-John N. Mitchell
-Law enforcement
-Jerry V. Wilson
-Treatment for heroin addicts
-Crime rate
-Methadone maintenance and street crime
-Treatment programs
-Reduction of crime
US servicemen and narcotics
-Returning servicemen from Vietnam
-Heroin
-Cost
-Vietnam and US compared
-Stealing
-Legislative efforts
-Military
-Identify, hold, and treat heroin addicts
-Release into civilian life
-Averting crime
-Methadone
49
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Example cited
-Addicted Vietnam servicemen
-Number
-Krogh's visit to Vietnam
-George P. Shultz’s and Ehrlichman’s visit to Vietnam
-John E. (“Jack”) Ingersoll
-Vietnam
-President Nguyen Van Thieu Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Ellsworth F. Bunker
-Gen. Creighton W. Abrams, Jr.
-Heroin smuggling into Vietnam
-Smuggling entry points
-Laos, Thailand, Cambodia
-Bunker
-Thieu
-Cable from Bunker to the White House
Ziegler entered at 4:43 pm.
Ziegler’s forthcoming press conference
-Possible announcements
-Drug problem
-Krogh
-Announcement by the President
-Domestic Council
-Richard G. Kleindienst
-Letter
-Law enforcement
Ziegler left at 4:44 pm.
International drug interdiction
-Bunker
-Vietnam
-Anti-smuggling
-Col. [Forename unknown] Hofson [?]
-Rank
-Laird
-Drug programs in DOD
-Laird's role in drug programs
-Forthcoming meeting with President
-Laird and Joint Chiefs of Staff [JCS]
50
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-David Packard
-Timing
-Ingersoll
-Report on trip
-Ingersoll’s possible appointment
-State Department
-Ingersoll's role
-Prevention in Turkey and France Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Attorney General
-Consolidating program
-Ingersoll and Attorney General
-International narcotics bills
-Multilateral
-US assistance
-US policy
-Opposition
-Economic and military aid
-Treaties
-United Nations [UN], North America Treaty Organization [NATO]
-State Department
-Turkey and France
-Possible public statement by the President
-Possible forums
-Vietnam
-Middle East
-Far East
-International nature of the drug problem
-Finch and Rumsfeld
-Armed forces
-Legislative package
-Supplemental appropriation
-$110 million
-HEW
-$50 Million to Ingersoll
51
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
[National Security]
[Duration: 18s ]
THAILAND Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
******************************************************************************
-National Institutes of Mental Health [NIMH]
-Methadone program
-NIMH
-Methadone
-Community mental health centers
-Chicago
-Washington, DC
-Narcotics Treatment Administration
-Psychiatrists
-Money
-NIMH funding
-Financing for programs treating servicemen
-Special Action Office
-Secretary of Defense
-Prevent discharge of addicts
-Heroin problem
Drugs as a social issue
-Vietnam war protesters
-Drugs
-Nationwide problem
-Finch-Rumsfeld report
-Civilians
-President as eyewitness
-Rome
52
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Paris
-Nepal
-Afghanistan
-Commune
-India
******************************************************************************
Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
[National Security/Privacy]
[Duration: 27s ]
INDIA
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
******************************************************************************
-Vietnam
-Europe
-Jobs
-DOD
-Abrams’ statement
-Correlation of combat role and drug use
-Boredom
-Frustration
Vietnam
-Availability of drugs
-Heroin
-Cost
-Thieu's reaction
-Administration’s complexity
-Police force
-Government
-Prime Minister's family
-National Security Council [NSC]
-Tran Kim Quang
53
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-NSC
-State Department meeting
-Daniel P. (“Pat”) Moynihan's comments
-Drug source
-State Department official's comments
******************************************************************************
Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 18
[National Security]
[Duration: 1m 25s ]
SOUTHEAST ASIA
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 18
******************************************************************************
-Heroin
-History of problem
-April 1970
-Marijuana
-Amphetamines
-Barbiturates
-Marijuana
-Seriousness of heroin problem
-Administration efforts
-Krogh visit
-US armed forces
-Proportion
-Possible statement by President
-Press conference
-Possibility of a Presidential press conference on the issue of the drug problem in
Vietnam
Legislative package
-John A. Scali
-Timing
54
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Staff efforts
Bertram S. Brown [NIMH Director]
-Richardson
-Employment at NIMH
-Possible firing
-Conduct
-Views on marijuana Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Federal funding of psychiatric training
-Brown's reaction
-Comments at a Congressional hearing
-Richardson's reaction
-Frederic V. Malek
-Richardson's assessment of the political ramifications
-Possible Brown firing
-Brown's marijuana quote
-Washington Post
-Possession of marijuana
-Brown
-Job in Massachusetts
-Richardson
-Deputy NIMH
-Brown's administrative abilities
-Unknown book on HEW
Richardson and Malek entered at 5:06 pm.
-Hugh Scott
-Edward W. Brooke
-White House
-Finch
-Brown
-Newspaper quotation
-As administrator
-Statements on marijuana
Drug problem with veterans
-President's forthcoming breakfast
-Joint Chiefs of Staff
-Service secretaries
-Laird
-David Packard
55
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
Brown
-Mental health
-Cooperation from Brown
-Richardson
-NIMH
-Brown's career
-Department of Mental Health Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Post-graduate work at Harvard University medical school
-John A. Volpe
-Department of Mental Health
-Massachusetts
-Volpe
-Promotion to NIMH
NIMH
-Size
-St. Elizabeth's Hospital
-Washington, D.C.
-Fire hazards
-Budget
-Size
-Administrative history
-National Institutes of Health [NIH]
-Reorganization
-Health Services and Mental Health Administration [HSMHA]
-Indian, public health, and hospital services
-Vernon E. Wilson
-University of Missouri
-Malek
-HSMHA
-NIMH
-Roger O. Egeberg
-Wilson
-Merlin K. Duval
-Egeberg
-Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
-Title
-Possible meeting with the President
Brown
-Testimony before Congress
56
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Ehrlichman's call to Richardson
-President’s concerns
-Press conference, May 1, 1971
-Commission on marijuana and drug abuse
-Brown's congressional testimony
-Marijuana
-Legalization
-Penalties for use Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Possible firing
-Age
-White House work
-His testimony on marijuana
-President's stand on marijuana
-Consistency of statements
-Philosophy
-Psychiatry
-Stan Yolles
-Firing
-Brown
-Previous work with Richardson
-Massachusetts
-Legislation on community health services
-Local initiatives
-Richardson’s forthcoming discussion with Brown
-Talking points
-Uncompromising line
-Veterans
-Narcotics Special Action Office
-Following administration policy
-Richardson’s responsibility
Drug Addiction
-Heroin abuse
-Armed Forces
-Numbers
-Crime
-Brown's views on heroin
-Methadone
-Brown
-Richardson's meeting with Brown regarding drugs on May 26, 1971
-Krogh
-Narcotics Special Action Office
57
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Jerome H. Jaffe
-Psychiatrist
-Illinois
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 19
[Privacy] Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
[Duration: 15s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 19
******************************************************************************
-Other candidates
-Psychiatrists
-Community based mental health facilities
-Group therapy
-Alcoholism
-Psychiatrist
-Clergy
-Group therapy
-Yale University secret societies
-Richardson
-Brown
-Possible meeting with the President
-Jaffe
-Previous experience
-Age
-World War I
-World War II
-Effect on US foreign policy
-South Vietnamese smuggling drugs
-Public reaction
-Press stories
-Subcommittee in the House
-Robert H. Steele
-Trip
-Report
-Vietnamese officials and heroin smuggling
58
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Thieu
-South Vietnam government
-Bunker and Abrams meeting with Thieu
-Steele
-Bunker
-Abrams
-Thieu
-Reporters in Vietnam Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Possible White House reaction to press stories
-Low profile
-Steele
-Thieu
-Bunker's proposal to Thieu last week
Health program
-Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy
-White paper
-HEW mailing
-Congress, newspapers, radio, television
-Richardson
-William F. Buckley, Jr.'s program "Firing Line", May 26, 1971
-Buckley
-Program’s theme
-Kennedy's health proposal
Murder of black girl in Birmingham [?]
-Response of Southern editors
H.R. 1
-Status
-Hearings in House Rules Committee
-Wilbur D. Mills
-Timing
-Revenue sharing
-Senate
-Richardson's lobbying efforts
-Carl T. Curtis
-Ronald W. Reagan
-Position
-Edwin Meese, III
-Frank C. Carlucci
-California Rural Legal Assistance [CRLA]
59
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Meese
-Administration strategy
-Edwin Reinecke
-President's assistance
-Reagan
-Effects of H.R. 1
-Administration strategy
-Planning a trip for Richardson Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Commonwealth Club in San Francisco
-Television appearance in Los Angeles
Richardson and Malek left at 5:48 pm.
President's schedule
-Policemen
-Hoover
-Dwight L. Chapin
-Wednesday breakfast
-JCS
-Leaders meetings
-Anastasio Somoza Debayle
Krogh left at 5:49 pm.
Gift
-Sword
-Saudis
Richardson
-Brown
-Finch
Leon Panetta's book
-Finch
-Ehrlichman
-Civil rights
-Resignation
-President’s statement on school desegregation, March 24, 1970
-Ehrlichman's staff
Secretary Richardson
-Henry A. Kissinger
60
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-William P. Rogers
-Possible appointment
-State Department
An unknown woman entered at an unknown time after 5:49 pm.
Rose Mary Woods
-Location Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
The unknown woman left at an unknown time before 5:51 pm.
Haldeman entered at 5:51 pm.
President's schedule
-Domestic Council
-JCS
-Breakfast
-Boy Scouts
-Somoza
Drugs
-Armed Services addiction problem
-President’s forthcoming meeting
-Laird
-Kissinger
-Ingersoll
-Laird
-Packard
-John N. Mitchell
-Krogh
Harrison A. Williams, Jr.
-Cop-killers
-Jail
-Cops
Hoover
-Criticism
Black Panthers
-Guilt
61
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
Kissinger entered at 5:56 pm.
Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]
-Internal policies
-State Department
-Treatment of Jews in the USSR Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Statement regarding the USSR
-White House
-Kissinger's religion
-Treatment of Blacks in the US
-Max M. Fisher
Drugs in Vietnam
-Forthcoming meeting, June 3, 1971
-Arthur T. Downey
-$120 million program
-100,000 Vietnam veteran addicts
-Krogh
-Heroin
-Congress
-Drug trafficking
-Thieu
-Forthcoming meeting of President, JCS, Service Secretaries, Laird and Packard
-Army
-Volunteers
-Cost of heroin in Vietnam compared to cost in US
-Crime
-Ehrlichman
-Kissinger
-Jaffe
-White House Special Action Group
-HEW
-Defense Department
-State Department
-Finch and Donald H. Rumsfeld report
-Drugs in Armed Forces in Europe
-Civilian drug use
-Hippies
-Foreign policy considerations
-Foreign service
62
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Turkey
-Importance as an issue
-U. Alexis Johnson
-Rogers
-John N. Irwin, II
-Attitude in the State Department
-Status quo
-Johnson's attendance at upcoming meeting Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Ehrlichman
-Drug trafficking
-State Department's efforts
-Turkey
-Thailand
-Bunker
-Americans in Europe
-Finch and Rumsfeld report
-Separate meeting
-Forthcoming meeting
-JCS
-Armed Service Secretaries
-Stanley R. Resor
-Robert F. Froehlke
-Resor's statement
-Laird
-Froehlke
-Press
-John H. Chafee
-Robert C. Seamans, Jr.
-Armed Services Secretaries
-Veterans Administration
-Donald E. Johnson
-Leaks
-Classified information
-New York Times
-Intelligence
-Jack N. Anderson's column
-Sources
-Richard M. Helms
-Defense Department
-Arms Control and Disarmament Agency [ACDA]
-Helms
-Leaks
63
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Missiles
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 20
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 23s ] Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 20
******************************************************************************
-Richardson
-Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
Foreign Affairs
-Rogers
-Spiro T. Agnew's talk with Haldeman on May 26, 1971
-Article in Washington Star
-Agnew's meeting with South African ministers
-Rogers’ canceled meeting with South African minister
-Trade discussions
-African bureau
-David P. Newsome
-White House Policy on Blacks
-Agnew
-South African Minister of Information
-Rogers’ call to Agnew
Panetta
-Book
-Firing
-HEW
-Brooke
-Scott
-Finch and Ehrlichman
-Firing
Charles W. Yost
64
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-New summaries
-Firing
-State Department
-Activities
-Dean G. Acheson
-Disloyalty
Leaks Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Missile silos
-Anti-ballistic missiles [ABM]
-US defense build-up
-USSR
Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
-Memo by Roger Barth
-IRS audit of Republicans in South Carolina
-Don Bacon[?], Deputy Director in IRS
-Audit of President's income taxes in 1961
-Culpability
Wire taps
-Robert C. Mardian
-J. Edgar Hoover
-Central File records
-Mardian’s efforts
-Robert F. Kennedy
-National security
-Political enemies
-Hoover
-Use of outsiders
-Kissinger's phones
IRS
-John B. Connally
-Tax audit
-Johnnie M. Walters
-Barth
-Rose Mary Woods
-Tax lawyer
Leaks
65
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Defense Department and ACDA
Vietnam
-Kissinger's relations with Laird
-Laird's meeting with President
-Helicopters in Vietnam
-Connally
-Importance of helicopters in Vietnam Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Laird's goal in Vietnam
-Bombing in North Laos
-Laird order
-Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
-Daily reports
-Haig
-ACDA
-Leaks
-Defense and ACDA
-Philip J. Farley
-Gerard C. Smith
-Intelligence
-Possible consequences of leaks
-Staff meeting of May 27, 1971
-John Finney
-Intelligence
-Mining
Leaks
-National security tap on John Finney
-Hoover
-Subpoena
-Surveillance
-Helms
-Breaking the law
-Photographs
-Surveillance operations
-Government
-Private person
-New York Times
-Finney
-Identity of leakers
-Finney’s sources
-National security
66
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Photographic equipment
-Congress
-Secret government clearances
-Oath of secrecy
-Identity of leakers
-White House
-State Department
-ACDA Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
-Smith
-ACDA
-Farley
-Defense Department
-Laird’s office
-Moorer
-Robert E. Pursley
-Need for administration action
-1972 election
-State Department
-Loyalty
-Defense Department
-Loyalty
-Military
-Robert S. McNamara
-ACDA
-Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
Appointments
-CIA
-Gen. Robert E. Cushman, Jr.
-Lt. Gen. Vernon A. Walters
-Military
-Cushman
-Possible position
-Commandant of the Marine Corps
-Finch
-Possible rank
-Marine Corps
-Maj. Gen James D. (“Don”) Hughes
-JCS
-CIA
-JCS
-Moorer
67
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Andrew J. Goodpaster
-Reappointment
-Cushman
-Commandant
-Goodpaster
-CIA
-Walters
Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
Domestic wiretapping
-Walters
-Cushman
-National security
-Walters
-Conspiracy
-Cushman
**********************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 16
[National Security]
[Duration: 13s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 16
**********************************************************************
Walters
-Support for Nixon
68
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 22
[National Security]
[Duration: 14s ]
INTELLIGENCE Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 22
******************************************************************************
[First name unknown] Drummond
-Kissinger's staff
-Possible appointments
-Promotions
-Navy Chief of Operations
Haig
-Possible appointment
-Army Chief of Staff
Army
-Gen. William C. Westmoreland
-JCS
-Four year terms
-Laird
-Abrams
-Laos operation
-Bangkok
-Health
-Laos
-Ability as an army officer
-Bangkok
-Kissinger's cables to Abrams
-Abrams’ replies
Vietnam
-World War II
-Garrison H. Davidson
69
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 9/08)
-Richard G. Stilwell
-President's friendship with Stilwell
-Davidson
-Gen. Charles H. Bonesteel, III
The President, Ehrlichman, Haldeman, and Kissinger left at 6:38 pm.
Conv. No. 504-15 (cont.)