On April 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 7:45 pm to 7:57 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 002-021 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I have Mr. Colson for you.
There you are.
Well, what's new in your front?
Well, we have a few things going, Mr. President.
We have Mr. Saxby, Senator Saxby, going on the television on the Today Show in the morning to pick up a little more of the McCloskey line and talk a little bit more about his conversion, which I think is very healthy.
We've had a...
I thought you'd be interested.
We've had quite a
fascinating reaction to your williamsburg speech i've had calls from people outside who are pretty good political barometers for me around the country who say that that one really really just scored points the uh you mean the welfare thing the welfare thing it just hit a nerve i had a friend of mine from boston call me tomorrow how'd they see it though did they read about it or hear about it or what about it saw it on television uh
But the basic line about people working, for example, a friend of mine in Boston who's a darn good politician, said that it was just a topic of conversation everywhere.
One of those speeches that catches hold, and I was surprised because I didn't think from the press that we'd get that kind of reaction, but excellent reaction.
Well, it's the right thing.
You see, HEW is against it.
All of our little, you know, people in the staff are against it because, you know, you're going to make all the welfare recipients mad.
And I said, to hell with them.
They're wrong.
So we'll do it.
Well, it's the kind of thing where every now and then you have to be against something that is very unpopular.
And people who don't work are just damned unpopular.
And I think the way you did it...
Apparently, as I say, I was surprised that they get so many calls from people on the other side who reacted as strongly as they did, which I thought was excellent.
I've had good playback from the hardhats, yes sir.
Going up there tonight, they're having a little
gathering an after-dinner gathering you're going up i'm going up to meet with them and spend some time with them but the the reaction to last night's meeting that closing line of yours really gave them a lift well tell them to stand firm have you found out uh who these veterans are that are coming in isn't it sir we had some reports today that uh there's a well i had two reports from two people who are infiltrated uh one is that there are three to four hundred veterans
and the balance, which is maybe 600 or 700 are non-veterans and kids who have bought fatigue uniforms, military jackets.
Could you find one that had?
Will any press man play the fact that one guy bought a fatigue uniform to look like a veteran?
We arranged, Mr. President.
God, that would be great.
Just one, just one bit.
Well, we arranged today for AP, an AP reporter to go in, and we identified some people for him to talk to.
We also did the same thing with a Baltimore Sun reporter.
Right.
And hopefully, if these fellows are honest, they'll start picking some of this up.
We've
also got a couple of kids on the inside who are going to go up to the cameras and say you know this is a phony deal and i'm leaving here whether the media picks it up or not we've we've done the things that at least encouraged so i i i'm hoping that'll come out there has been some there's been a little bit of this every now and then one of the wire stories we'll talk about the fact that there's a large gathering of non-veterans included
Both veterans organizations are coming to Washington Thursday, the VFW and the American Legion, to have a joint press conference, which they've only done once before in their history.
What are you going to say?
Disavow this completely and say that these veterans want to turn in the medals.
Why don't they say that more than half of these people are non-veterans?
Well, they plan to.
Don Johnson is briefing them tomorrow, Mr. President.
Who is?
Don Johnson.
Yes?
He's giving them the intelligence.
Good.
And both of the commanders will say that these are not veteran organizations, they don't represent veteran sentiment, and they're heavily infiltrated.
TV has given them quite a play, haven't they?
Yeah, they have.
I must say I've been a little...
It's bothered me.
Everybody else that I've talked to today, it hasn't bothered them.
Dick Moore didn't think it was getting much play.
Well, he doesn't know.
My own reaction was that they've gotten more press than...
than they deserve, that's for sure.
Maybe we should go forward with that.
I mean, you know, we worry about whether or not we go forward with the TV antitrust thing.
Why not?
Well, really, in a sense, what the hell?
I mean, so it's said we're going to try to silence the TV.
So what the hell?
Well, they're very much on the defensive.
Everything we've called them on...
I don't know whether CBS has retracted that business about the Providence rally on Sunday or not, but we called them on it because the police estimates were 5,000 to 6,000 people.
Yeah.
Rather said 25,000.
Rather said 25,000.
they've been they've been uh they've been good when we've called them like when we called them today and said we wanted saxby they went right ahead well in any event let's play it that way for the moment and tell them that you've got this suit and you're trying to tell them you're holding it back that's the thing to do okay yes sir and just say well look uh the president doesn't want to embarrass you and this and that and he's talked to the attorney general and we're holding it back and but just tell them that the few may fall well they know the they know the economic leverage and
Charlotte matters.
It is.
That's right.
Exactly.
The hearing's open tomorrow on the Kennedy's committee, as you know.
Yes.
McCloskey will be the first witness.
McCloskey's the first witness.
Then Sullivan and State go up the next day.
Well.
But hopefully, Saxby, if he does a good job in the morning, will take a little sting out of it.
I don't think McCloskey has caught on.
I don't think that he's made much with this issue.
You don't?
No.
I really don't.
Yeah.
I think he's... We had a meeting with some of what were supposed to be our... You weren't there, were you?
No.
I talked to Clark McGregor after our meeting last night and asked him to boost their spirits a bit.
What?
You talked to him what?
Did they come in uplifted at all?
No.
They were all Hardbaker and Gurney and...
particularly, were saying the main thing is to get out of, you know, stop the war.
It's a terrible thing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know, that sort of thing.
Well, hell, I know that.
The real question is these guys, you know, have got to realize that we're doing some things that the people are supporting, and they hadn't heard about the pole or anything, you know, nothing.
No, Clark hadn't done a very good job on it.
I want you to take it up in the morning meeting why he hadn't got the pole around to him.
Well, I talked to him last night about getting these fellows on a little bit of an upbeat note and coming into you and saying, what can we do for a change to help the president?
Not one of them said that.
Not one.
Isn't that something?
Mm-hmm.
Well, I will raise that in the morning meeting because we discussed it after I left your office last night.
Actually, it was interesting, but, I mean, Clark must know that I know everybody wants to end the war.
I don't need to hear that, you know.
And we are ending it.
But...
I think Clark sort of has a feeling that I've got to know what they think.
Christ, I know what they think.
I don't know what to be told.
You've been around that game long enough.
He may really feel that, don't you think?
Yeah, he's... That I don't really know what they're thinking.
Well, Christ, I know more what they think than they do.
Of course you do.
Of course Clark comes out of that environment.
Not always is it...
I know, but he's great.
He's fine.
He's...
doing the best he can, but you know what I mean?
He reflects them, and they're all bitching and raising hell and this and that.
But this is a group that, I mean, I don't mean they should support everything we do, but I think we've got to realize that there's some things going right at the present time.
You know what I mean?
That's right.
The economy is going right.
The China thing went right.
And also the speech of April 7th went right.
It had quite an effect on the country, as the polls show.
They hadn't heard of the polls at all.
They hadn't seen that, strangely enough.
Well, that's disappointing because I know I talked to Clark on Friday about, I think it was, getting that one hand delivered to the Senate because they were back in.
All right, raise that in the meeting.
Are you going to meet in the morning?
Yes, sir.
I'll be at the 815 meeting.
At the 815 meeting, I want you to go in and say no.
Why was it that none of the senators knew about the change in reaction to the support of the president and what he was doing to end the war and on the other things?
what happened put it right to him say now look here this is a fall down if he doesn't do it you do it right because uh i think as a matter of fact others i mean old tower naturally and bellman and others were still uh you know standing firm but uh baker's a bellwether and uh so is uh gurney they
were reflecting what they were hearing and they hadn't heard anything about our polls baker is of course baker's up next time he's uh he's getting nervous politically well we'll take care of baker he'll he'll be all right he'll be all right but he isn't gonna be all right if he uh you know just uh sort of joins the doves if he does that he'll be finished
Well, I would think in Tennessee he would.
Well, he doesn't think so.
He says everybody in Tennessee is all against it, you know.
That isn't true, really.
I mean, he's hearing from people that are, but.
Well, I, of course, I hear a lot of, I have a lot of contact with people on the outside.
Yeah.
I sense a better feeling, a better mood, Mr. President.
Do you?
Than we've had, and it's just, it's really since the break in the Galley case, which I felt was, at the time and feel today, was a great,
opportunity to demonstrate presidential leadership of the right kind.
None of them mentioned that, of course, which was not one.
That was the right thing to do.
It took the sting out of it, and it helped.
It helped, and it galvanized our people, but it also showed you acting in a very responsible way in a time of national turmoil.
And since then, things have quieted, and attitudes are better.
One thing you ought to emphasize in the morning is that
They've got to really stand up against these demonstrators.
They must not, you know, run with those folks.
The demonstrators?
Yes, sir.
Right.
Don't run with them.
You know, it's interesting, Mr. President.
We can't get Kennedy to say what he thinks.
We can't get Humphrey to.
Really?
They're being amazingly quiet.
And you have tried.
I noted a memo to the effect that you tried, and they wouldn't say.
We keep calling their offices, asking, reporters do, asking, and they won't issue any statements.
Same thing on China, by the way.
Not one of them has spoken on China.
Neither Muskie, McGovern, Humphrey.
And yet here they'll crow about, they'll talk, they'll carp about negative things, but...
can't even get a statement out of the luncheon, which I think is kind of a fascinating story in itself.
Of course, on the plus side, the economy helps us now.
I mean, people argue about how much, but it's still moving in the right direction.
Yes, it is.
And we ought to get people to...
let's uh let's get a good strong movement but beyond that we've got to get a better system of getting what polls we take to our people on an individual basis don't mail it to them call them on the phone say here it is boys see what i mean if you call a few key people they uh they love to talk about it that's right no question about that well let's see that
All right.
Some of these figures haven't been put out.
You raise it with Haldeman in the morning and at the meeting and say, now let's find a way to get this out to these people.
I'll do it.
Okay.
Fine, Mr. President.
Thank you, sir.